Wow, this page is fantastic. Three thoughts (ramblings):
1. Illustrating Your Philosophy
Though I am abstractly philosophically inclined, I always want it tied to everyday life.
This post superbly illustrates what can be abstract in previous posts. Thus I'd encourage putting a footnote relating the subject of that post (x) to this post for illustration, such as:
(i) See (x) here on our Retreat Activity page for an simple illustration of how this can fit into practice.
In other words, this post can link to everything on the site -- and this post could be enlarged a bit to make that happen. That would be hyperlink-heaven: life & philosophy become inseparable.
Thanx for the page -- it makes the makes your group alive: real, fun, challenging, weird, practical and all that at once.
2. Sangha vs. Community
Your section on Sangha help crystalize something for me. You said:
Although a sangha is a “community,” it is not a social group in the usual sense. A sangha is an artificial community, bound by a commitment to practice, rather than the usual considerations of friendship, practical cooperation, and power dynamics.
Oddly enough, over the decades, I have come to understand the importance of not expecting too much from a group. I understand the importance of mutual recognized purpose, leaving behind one's issues and working together to strengthen each other on the commonly agreed purpose. I do this at work, at martial arts, at kid's group clubs. For through my years, I realized that I look for these groups to supply friendships and have been disappointed when I can't find them and thus I blamed the group. Though I have understood that mistake now and have changed my behavior over the years in adjustment, reading your paragraph made it really click for me and I saw how I still do that a bit without realizing it. How simple.
For instance, I had planned on a post about my disappointment I had with a Zen group to illustrate the weakness of the group instead of understanding my own role in the issue: I had been with for a year when I had an acute illness (pericarditis) that stopped me from attending for 3 months yet I never heard from anyone at the Zendo -- it was disappointing. I thought we had community. (my wife and kids went -- my kids were the only ones there for a while.) Put still part of me thinks "how about at least a call to say -- 'you OK?'".
People choose churches for community. The word "community" is huge in Christian circles much like Sangha is in Buddhist. I'd wager there is a large variety of position on how Sanghas look at mutual support and friendship as well as simple time to practice together. Perhaps your lesson is even one for churches. "Realize that we are committed to supporting each other in practice, and if you accidentally form a friendship then great, but that is not the reason for our association." So if friendship is one's priority, I could see an individual doing one of two things:
(i) Seeking a larger group -- better chance of finding friends.
(ii) Seeking a really small group that filters for the exact same type of folks (leading to inbred neurosis!)
You made me think, thank you. It points me back to my habits and grabbing at reality.
3. Tibetan Seminar
I have a post here where I tell about a village in rural India that embraced a form of Christianity preached by American missionaries (my girlfriend's parents). I had traveled (very poor) through India on top of trains, eating very local and wearing Indian attire for 4 months before visiting the village -- I was trying to immerse myself. So when I arrived at this rural village, I was shocked to see how poor villagers saved up for Western attire to wear on Sundays when they went to their church to sing Western hymns, sit in pews and shake hands and hug -- very NOT Indian. They were mixing up Christianity and USA customs. Sadly, when those missionaries had to leave, after 40 years, the whole community fell apart with infighting over who owns the hospital and the school. The church became a temple and people were sitting on the floors again sing bhajan and now greeting each other with palms joined.
Your retreats sound like a seminar in being Tibetan. I love learning other cultures -- really love it. I think the love I have for such activity is also part of my creative, exploring, magical mind. So I have always wondered if people are tricking themselves with spiritual satisfaction no deeper than the person who goes to an anime festival when they join religious groups focused on the country of origin.
Your group seems very insightful and creative and I'd wager you find ways to address this "Tibetophile" potential pitfall. Have you seen this come up in discussion or addressed outright? It seems you mix a little western stuff -- cowboy hats, tuxedos to help mix folks up and stop such a silly mindset -- which I am thinking may be such a mechanism. And I get that culture is just the paint we express ourselves with. But I'd imagine, if you want Aro to spread, a non-tibetophile version would draw a different crowd. All to say, the type of folks drawn to worshiping another culture (in a sense) come with their unique neuroses. Thus folks drawn to these groups are, in part (as mentioned above), seeking a smaller community of folks with similar traits (thus inviting inbred mentality). Curious for your thoughts.
1. Good idea. Sounds like work, though. I'm trying to minimize work on this site in order to have more time for my other ones.
2. Glad this was helpful. I'm planning to have a whole page on the subject in the series on "how to approach religious traditions in general". I said some more about it here.
3. Many people are attracted to Tibetan Buddhism because they love Tibetan culture. Those people find that they do not like Aro at all. Many other people are attracted to Vajrayana in theory, but don't like Tibetan culture and want to get the essential practices without any Tibetan stuff. Those people find they do not like Aro at all.
Your orientation is more like the second than the first, so Aro may look very Tibetan to you, and that might be a good enough reason to stay away. From your perspective, it won't be obvious that anyone who is "serious about Tibetan Buddhism" will regard Aro as "some kind of New Age fake" because we don't do everything the same way Tibetans do. In fact, we do almost nothing the same way Tibetans do. You know, our momo sauce recipe is totally inauthentic—you are not supposed to cook the ginger—and that makes us frauds.
Of course, lots of Tibetans don't do things in the traditional ways, either. There's a great interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche about that. He's one of the Tibetan Lamas I most admire (from afar—I haven't met him).
There's two simple stories you can tell about tradition: "We know the traditional way works, so we should do everything the traditional way" and "We are Americans, so we should do everything the American way". These stories make good sense and maybe those approaches will work for many people. But the Aro approach is "some Tibetan things work for us and some don't; we adopt the ones that do". Somehow that seems to be an unattractively complicated concept for many people.
I seen lovers of Indian, Chinese and Japanese culture do their quick pilgrimages to those countries. I have seen people try to force their idealizations to materialize. I am skeptical of lack of skepticism.
I still love lots of Japanese, Chinese and Indian culture -- it can make me appear weird actually. And I am ashamed to say that the Tibetan side of stuff sort of attracts me for curious and playful reasons. Heck I love lots about the cultures I know in the USA. And for all of these, there are parts that don't fit with me at all. And some, which I think are downright bad.
My Tibetan exposures to date are limited: I lived in Dharmsala for 2 weeks (lived in India and Pakistan for 18mo), lived with a Tibetan family in Washington DC for 1 year, read Tibetan Buddhism on and off for many years, attended an initiation in to Kalachakra by the Dalai Lama when he was in Madison many years ago (it was way over my head), lived in Chengdu (ancient Tibet) for 1 year and visited several holy mountains having a few experiences with ethnic Tibetans there.
I enjoy much of the little of Tibetan culture I know. But I idealize no culture -- I am an incurable skeptic but also have an indomitable curiosity and love experimentation.
I get what you are saying. I love that Aro breaks the rules. I am cautious of those who are drawn in for reasons I have discussed above. But as you said, the commitment to a Sangha is for the purpose of the rigpa training, we don't have to be best buddies.
I like that Aro lives in that in-between zone consciously and boldly and that they even let in folks like you. :-)
Yes, there are things I love about Tibetan culture, and things I find pretty ugh.
One thing I should have said is that the Aro Lamas teach about this topic of traditionalism often. Both halves. They aren't teaching Tibetanism, they are teaching Buddhism, and it's important to be clear on which bits are which, and not to get hung up on trying to be more-Tibetan-than-thou. Also they aren't willing to compromise with Western values when those conflict with things they think are essential to Vajrayana, and there is no value in being modern just because it's modern.
I'm sure they must have written about this, but I just did a quick googling and couldn't find it. Anyway, it's quite likely to come up at public events, or you could ask about it if you wanted to know more details.
So if I understand correctly (trying to piece together these posts), The last day of a week retreat you have "celebration" -- it looks like, as you say, "formal, crisp attire". But no nakedness that day, right?
You guys get naked on the last morning of the retreat at a "Tsok", right.
How much of that time is naked and what are you doing?
Do Aro apprentices share partners, share embraces naked with people other than their spouses...?
Are apprentices encouraged to have sex with Lamas or teachers to further their practices?
The schedule may vary, but typically there's Celebration on the last evening (which is the second-to-last day), then there's sleep, then there's tsok in the morning, then there's clean-up, then everyone goes home.
How much of that time is naked and what are you doing?
Do Aro apprentices share partners, share embraces naked with people other than their spouses...?
Are apprentices encouraged to have sex with Lamas or teachers to further their practices?
Aaaaack. If these questions came up, I must have done a lousy job writing this page, and it needs severe revision!
The three displays are adopted for the duration of the tsok (which is about three hours, typically). Mostly the tsok consists of silent sitting meditation. We sit in a rough circle. Passages from the liturgy are read out at intervals. About two thirds of the way through khandros (= mostly ordained women) bring a plate of food to each participant. Then three pawos (= men) do a sort of athletic dance with a drum, and recite bits of the liturgy from memory. (I am sort of athletic, as the Aro sangha goes, so I usually do this. I am terrible at memorizing liturgy, and sometimes someone has to prompt me, which I find a lot more embarrassing than dancing naked.) After that there's a bit of singing, and then we eat and converse. Then there's a bit more silent sitting, and that's it.
The Aro Lamas strongly encourage monogamy. This is a central principle of the lineage, connected with the Khandro-Pawo Nyida Mélong teachings on vajra romance. There are extensive teachings on the topic. Sexual misconduct within the sangha would likely lead to being expelled.
The Lamas have been outspoken in condemning sexual abuse of students by Buddhist teachers. I've never heard any hint that there has been sexual impropriety on the part of any of the Aro teachers. They've gotten some flak over the years, but never about that.
There isn't a karma mudra (sexual) practice in the Aro gTér. (This is atypical and possibly unique among Tibetan lineages.) There's no way that Aro practice could be furthered via sexual contact with a teacher (even if it were permissible).
How much of that time is naked and what are you doing?
Do Aro apprentices share partners, share embraces naked with people other than their spouses...?
Are apprentices encouraged to have sex with Lamas or teachers to further their practices?
I'm glad you asked these questions - they're probably the first questions many reasonable people approaching a tradition would ask if they heard that one of its practices involved nakedness.
Aro Tsog practice is unusual in different ways. One is its re-formation of a historic style of Tsog little practised in recent history (but not unique to the Aro gTér). Another is the combination of formality and nakedness. That seems particularly difficult for modern Westerners to get our heads around. My theory is it's because nakedness, in Western cultural perception, runs along a line between casual to promiscuous. Formality is outside the 'naked' box. So, if someone hears of a ritual involving nakedness, that triggers assumptions that involve sex because it's the most available reference point we have.
Every Aro practice, in some way, challenges reference points. This is no exception.
@ Ricardo
Glad you had a good time at your first Aro event in December. Sorry I wasn't there to meet you - maybe next time.
I think it would be nice for people to know if they are demanded to be naked on tsok, or if they can keep their clothes until they feel confortable with their own nakedness.
P.S. Rin'dzin, i'm sure we will meet some day. I'm now waiting to attend some Nor'dzin Pamo and 'o-Dzin Tridral events, since it's my goal to became their apprentice some day.
Thank you for honoring the questions -- I think you rightly pick-up that my questions are intended as sincere. I think your analysis is spot on. Here I wrote a note to Kate explaining my hesitations.
@ David:
Thank you for the further explanations -- as always, they get right to the issues I question.
I wonder if a section in this blog on this issue alone (more up-front and spoken of directly without wrapping inside of other discussions) would be a good idea. The section title could be something like: "Nudity and Sex in Aro's Vajrayāna". And then some of the obvious doubts, pitfalls and such and be discussed in separate paragraphs -- for they all seem to cry for explanation (from my limited perspective). Examples of paragraph titiles could be: Monogamy, Sexual Misconduct, Lamas and potential sexual abuse, Nudity Ritual, Nudity in Private Practice, The Benefits of Nudity, The potential abuse of Nudity, Choice and Non-coercion, Closeted Nudity in Other Traditions, Karma Mudra (maybe a separate page on this) .... [I am just brain-storming here]
Your descriptions are excellent and can really make things seem much more reasonable -- especially the more concrete your descriptions get. Details make the philosophy full and more real to those "approaching". Thanx [not that my cautiousness is dissolved, of course -- but again, you give good signs of healthiness in this ripe area of potential abuse.]
I wonder if a section in this blog on this issue alone (more up-front and spoken of directly without wrapping inside of other discussions) would be a good idea. The section title could be something like: "Nudity and Sex in Aro's Vajrayāna". And then some of the obvious doubts, pitfalls and such and be discussed in separate paragraphs -- for they all seem to cry for explanation (from my limited perspective). Examples of paragraph titiles could be: Monogamy, Sexual Misconduct, Lamas and potential sexual abuse, Nudity Ritual, Nudity in Private Practice, The Benefits of Nudity, The potential abuse of Nudity, Choice and Non-coercion, Closeted Nudity in Other Traditions, Karma Mudra (maybe a separate page on this) .... [I am just brain-storming here]
Thank you—this is an excellent suggestion!
As I've mentioned, I'm trying to minimize work on this site in order to concentrate on my otherones. So I'm unlikely to get to do this soon. However, based on your comments, I can see several small changes I can make to the "Tsok" and "Apprentice retreat" pages that should be helpful in the short run.
I admire the thoroughness of the research you are doing. And, because you are doing that partly in public in comments on this site, other people will benefit from your work. Thank you for that on behalf of others approaching Aro in the future.
Should you decide to become an Aro apprentice, perhaps you can write the "Nudity and Sex in Aro's Vajrayāna" page? Either for this site or some other one.
I started this site as a purely personal project, but it seems to be functioning as a semi-official site for information about the Aro lineage. Apparently there were gaps in the official sites that we couldn't see before. Maybe this site ought to evolve toward being more official, and less my personal production. Perhaps having several authors would be helpful. I never intended it to be comprehensive, and I don't have time enough to make it that way. Also, inevitably different authors will have different perspectives.
Thank you for this suggestion. I'm pretty sure the answer is "it is always optional", but I want to make absolutely sure. So I will do that, and then I will update the page to say so.
David,
Your generosity in understanding my intent and potential value are striking -- thank you.
I think your final paragraph's evaluation is spot on. However, I don't know the writing skills or intellectual habits of other Aro folks hardly at all. I think your style is singularly brilliant, inviting and clear without a touch of sectarianism. Indeed a new organized editing with many authors with many insights may be fantastic, but boy, I wouldn't want to see your style as informing the whole feel to the site be lost. But that is my personal preference.
The main Aro site is unwieldy, though helpful. It is easy to get lost there and ... I think the theme of "approaching" Aro is an important aspect in the phases model and you do that well. Writing from a "true committed believer" perspective could be off-putting for those approaching Aro or approaching any tradition.
And whatever you do when you edit this site, I think that getting rid of at least of half of my comments would be wise. You could address or not address a point in one of the posts and then scrap the comment. And certainly many of my comments are not to valuable. Readers of a thread or a blog can be put off commenting due to tons of pre-existing comments and a long history -- so cleaning up threads may be useful and can invite more dialogue.
This comment, for example, should eventually disappear IMHO. Leave room for those question from the new platforms. Again, I wholeheartedly support wiping my comments that are addressed in posts in some manner or which are felt irrelevant thereafter -- and others too, of course. Starting afresh with edition 2 could be cool!
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Comments
Philosophy-enlivened, Community-thirst, Tibetophiles
31 Dec 2010
Wow, this page is fantastic. Three thoughts (ramblings):
1. Illustrating Your Philosophy
Though I am abstractly philosophically inclined, I always want it tied to everyday life.
This post superbly illustrates what can be abstract in previous posts. Thus I'd encourage putting a footnote relating the subject of that post (x) to this post for illustration, such as:
(i) See (x) here on our Retreat Activity page for an simple illustration of how this can fit into practice.
In other words, this post can link to everything on the site -- and this post could be enlarged a bit to make that happen. That would be hyperlink-heaven: life & philosophy become inseparable.
Thanx for the page -- it makes the makes your group alive: real, fun, challenging, weird, practical and all that at once.
2. Sangha vs. Community
Your section on Sangha help crystalize something for me. You said:
Oddly enough, over the decades, I have come to understand the importance of not expecting too much from a group. I understand the importance of mutual recognized purpose, leaving behind one's issues and working together to strengthen each other on the commonly agreed purpose. I do this at work, at martial arts, at kid's group clubs. For through my years, I realized that I look for these groups to supply friendships and have been disappointed when I can't find them and thus I blamed the group. Though I have understood that mistake now and have changed my behavior over the years in adjustment, reading your paragraph made it really click for me and I saw how I still do that a bit without realizing it. How simple.
For instance, I had planned on a post about my disappointment I had with a Zen group to illustrate the weakness of the group instead of understanding my own role in the issue: I had been with for a year when I had an acute illness (pericarditis) that stopped me from attending for 3 months yet I never heard from anyone at the Zendo -- it was disappointing. I thought we had community. (my wife and kids went -- my kids were the only ones there for a while.) Put still part of me thinks "how about at least a call to say -- 'you OK?'".
People choose churches for community. The word "community" is huge in Christian circles much like Sangha is in Buddhist. I'd wager there is a large variety of position on how Sanghas look at mutual support and friendship as well as simple time to practice together. Perhaps your lesson is even one for churches. "Realize that we are committed to supporting each other in practice, and if you accidentally form a friendship then great, but that is not the reason for our association." So if friendship is one's priority, I could see an individual doing one of two things:
(i) Seeking a larger group -- better chance of finding friends.
(ii) Seeking a really small group that filters for the exact same type of folks (leading to inbred neurosis!)
You made me think, thank you. It points me back to my habits and grabbing at reality.
3. Tibetan Seminar
I have a post here where I tell about a village in rural India that embraced a form of Christianity preached by American missionaries (my girlfriend's parents). I had traveled (very poor) through India on top of trains, eating very local and wearing Indian attire for 4 months before visiting the village -- I was trying to immerse myself. So when I arrived at this rural village, I was shocked to see how poor villagers saved up for Western attire to wear on Sundays when they went to their church to sing Western hymns, sit in pews and shake hands and hug -- very NOT Indian. They were mixing up Christianity and USA customs. Sadly, when those missionaries had to leave, after 40 years, the whole community fell apart with infighting over who owns the hospital and the school. The church became a temple and people were sitting on the floors again sing bhajan and now greeting each other with palms joined.
Your retreats sound like a seminar in being Tibetan. I love learning other cultures -- really love it. I think the love I have for such activity is also part of my creative, exploring, magical mind. So I have always wondered if people are tricking themselves with spiritual satisfaction no deeper than the person who goes to an anime festival when they join religious groups focused on the country of origin.
Your group seems very insightful and creative and I'd wager you find ways to address this "Tibetophile" potential pitfall. Have you seen this come up in discussion or addressed outright? It seems you mix a little western stuff -- cowboy hats, tuxedos to help mix folks up and stop such a silly mindset -- which I am thinking may be such a mechanism. And I get that culture is just the paint we express ourselves with. But I'd imagine, if you want Aro to spread, a non-tibetophile version would draw a different crowd. All to say, the type of folks drawn to worshiping another culture (in a sense) come with their unique neuroses. Thus folks drawn to these groups are, in part (as mentioned above), seeking a smaller community of folks with similar traits (thus inviting inbred mentality). Curious for your thoughts.
Tibetophilia
31 Dec 2010
1. Good idea. Sounds like work, though. I'm trying to minimize work on this site in order to have more time for my other ones.
2. Glad this was helpful. I'm planning to have a whole page on the subject in the series on "how to approach religious traditions in general". I said some more about it here.
3. Many people are attracted to Tibetan Buddhism because they love Tibetan culture. Those people find that they do not like Aro at all. Many other people are attracted to Vajrayana in theory, but don't like Tibetan culture and want to get the essential practices without any Tibetan stuff. Those people find they do not like Aro at all.
Your orientation is more like the second than the first, so Aro may look very Tibetan to you, and that might be a good enough reason to stay away. From your perspective, it won't be obvious that anyone who is "serious about Tibetan Buddhism" will regard Aro as "some kind of New Age fake" because we don't do everything the same way Tibetans do. In fact, we do almost nothing the same way Tibetans do. You know, our momo sauce recipe is totally inauthentic—you are not supposed to cook the ginger—and that makes us frauds.
Of course, lots of Tibetans don't do things in the traditional ways, either. There's a great interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche about that. He's one of the Tibetan Lamas I most admire (from afar—I haven't met him).
There's two simple stories you can tell about tradition: "We know the traditional way works, so we should do everything the traditional way" and "We are Americans, so we should do everything the American way". These stories make good sense and maybe those approaches will work for many people. But the Aro approach is "some Tibetan things work for us and some don't; we adopt the ones that do". Somehow that seems to be an unattractively complicated concept for many people.
I seen lovers of Indian,
31 Dec 2010
I seen lovers of Indian, Chinese and Japanese culture do their quick pilgrimages to those countries. I have seen people try to force their idealizations to materialize. I am skeptical of lack of skepticism.
I still love lots of Japanese, Chinese and Indian culture -- it can make me appear weird actually. And I am ashamed to say that the Tibetan side of stuff sort of attracts me for curious and playful reasons. Heck I love lots about the cultures I know in the USA. And for all of these, there are parts that don't fit with me at all. And some, which I think are downright bad.
My Tibetan exposures to date are limited: I lived in Dharmsala for 2 weeks (lived in India and Pakistan for 18mo), lived with a Tibetan family in Washington DC for 1 year, read Tibetan Buddhism on and off for many years, attended an initiation in to Kalachakra by the Dalai Lama when he was in Madison many years ago (it was way over my head), lived in Chengdu (ancient Tibet) for 1 year and visited several holy mountains having a few experiences with ethnic Tibetans there.
I enjoy much of the little of Tibetan culture I know. But I idealize no culture -- I am an incurable skeptic but also have an indomitable curiosity and love experimentation.
I get what you are saying. I love that Aro breaks the rules. I am cautious of those who are drawn in for reasons I have discussed above. But as you said, the commitment to a Sangha is for the purpose of the rigpa training, we don't have to be best buddies.
I like that Aro lives in that in-between zone consciously and boldly and that they even let in folks like you. :-)
Cultural and essential Vajrayana
1 Jan 2011
Yes, there are things I love about Tibetan culture, and things I find pretty ugh.
One thing I should have said is that the Aro Lamas teach about this topic of traditionalism often. Both halves. They aren't teaching Tibetanism, they are teaching Buddhism, and it's important to be clear on which bits are which, and not to get hung up on trying to be more-Tibetan-than-thou. Also they aren't willing to compromise with Western values when those conflict with things they think are essential to Vajrayana, and there is no value in being modern just because it's modern.
I'm sure they must have written about this, but I just did a quick googling and couldn't find it. Anyway, it's quite likely to come up at public events, or you could ask about it if you wanted to know more details.
Getting Naked
7 Jan 2011
So if I understand correctly (trying to piece together these posts), The last day of a week retreat you have "celebration" -- it looks like, as you say, "formal, crisp attire". But no nakedness that day, right?
You guys get naked on the last morning of the retreat at a "Tsok", right.
How much of that time is naked and what are you doing?
Do Aro apprentices share partners, share embraces naked with people other than their spouses...?
Are apprentices encouraged to have sex with Lamas or teachers to further their practices?
No sexual practice
7 Jan 2011
The schedule may vary, but typically there's Celebration on the last evening (which is the second-to-last day), then there's sleep, then there's tsok in the morning, then there's clean-up, then everyone goes home.
Aaaaack. If these questions came up, I must have done a lousy job writing this page, and it needs severe revision!
The three displays are adopted for the duration of the tsok (which is about three hours, typically). Mostly the tsok consists of silent sitting meditation. We sit in a rough circle. Passages from the liturgy are read out at intervals. About two thirds of the way through khandros (= mostly ordained women) bring a plate of food to each participant. Then three pawos (= men) do a sort of athletic dance with a drum, and recite bits of the liturgy from memory. (I am sort of athletic, as the Aro sangha goes, so I usually do this. I am terrible at memorizing liturgy, and sometimes someone has to prompt me, which I find a lot more embarrassing than dancing naked.) After that there's a bit of singing, and then we eat and converse. Then there's a bit more silent sitting, and that's it.
The Aro Lamas strongly encourage monogamy. This is a central principle of the lineage, connected with the Khandro-Pawo Nyida Mélong teachings on vajra romance. There are extensive teachings on the topic. Sexual misconduct within the sangha would likely lead to being expelled.
The Lamas have been outspoken in condemning sexual abuse of students by Buddhist teachers. I've never heard any hint that there has been sexual impropriety on the part of any of the Aro teachers. They've gotten some flak over the years, but never about that.
There isn't a karma mudra (sexual) practice in the Aro gTér. (This is atypical and possibly unique among Tibetan lineages.) There's no way that Aro practice could be furthered via sexual contact with a teacher (even if it were permissible).
Practising naked
7 Jan 2011
Hi,
@ Sabio:
I'm glad you asked these questions - they're probably the first questions many reasonable people approaching a tradition would ask if they heard that one of its practices involved nakedness.
Aro Tsog practice is unusual in different ways. One is its re-formation of a historic style of Tsog little practised in recent history (but not unique to the Aro gTér). Another is the combination of formality and nakedness. That seems particularly difficult for modern Westerners to get our heads around. My theory is it's because nakedness, in Western cultural perception, runs along a line between casual to promiscuous. Formality is outside the 'naked' box. So, if someone hears of a ritual involving nakedness, that triggers assumptions that involve sex because it's the most available reference point we have.
Every Aro practice, in some way, challenges reference points. This is no exception.
@ Ricardo
Glad you had a good time at your first Aro event in December. Sorry I wasn't there to meet you - maybe next time.
Rin'dzin
Hi, I think it would be nice
7 Jan 2011
Hi,
I think it would be nice for people to know if they are demanded to be naked on tsok, or if they can keep their clothes until they feel confortable with their own nakedness.
P.S. Rin'dzin, i'm sure we will meet some day. I'm now waiting to attend some Nor'dzin Pamo and 'o-Dzin Tridral events, since it's my goal to became their apprentice some day.
Best wishes,
Ricardo Brito
Oporto, Portugal
Hello Ricardo
8 Jan 2011
@ Ricardo
I agree. Good note.
Thank you for understanding
8 Jan 2011
@ Rin'dzin
Thank you for honoring the questions -- I think you rightly pick-up that my questions are intended as sincere. I think your analysis is spot on.
Here I wrote a note to Kate explaining my hesitations.
Benefits vs Abuse in Nudity
8 Jan 2011
@ David:
Thank you for the further explanations -- as always, they get right to the issues I question.
I wonder if a section in this blog on this issue alone (more up-front and spoken of directly without wrapping inside of other discussions) would be a good idea. The section title could be something like: "Nudity and Sex in Aro's Vajrayāna". And then some of the obvious doubts, pitfalls and such and be discussed in separate paragraphs -- for they all seem to cry for explanation (from my limited perspective). Examples of paragraph titiles could be: Monogamy, Sexual Misconduct, Lamas and potential sexual abuse, Nudity Ritual, Nudity in Private Practice, The Benefits of Nudity, The potential abuse of Nudity, Choice and Non-coercion, Closeted Nudity in Other Traditions, Karma Mudra (maybe a separate page on this) .... [I am just brain-storming here]
Your descriptions are excellent and can really make things seem much more reasonable -- especially the more concrete your descriptions get. Details make the philosophy full and more real to those "approaching". Thanx [not that my cautiousness is dissolved, of course -- but again, you give good signs of healthiness in this ripe area of potential abuse.]
Excellent suggestion
9 Jan 2011
Thank you—this is an excellent suggestion!
As I've mentioned, I'm trying to minimize work on this site in order to concentrate on my other ones. So I'm unlikely to get to do this soon. However, based on your comments, I can see several small changes I can make to the "Tsok" and "Apprentice retreat" pages that should be helpful in the short run.
I admire the thoroughness of the research you are doing. And, because you are doing that partly in public in comments on this site, other people will benefit from your work. Thank you for that on behalf of others approaching Aro in the future.
Should you decide to become an Aro apprentice, perhaps you can write the "Nudity and Sex in Aro's Vajrayāna" page? Either for this site or some other one.
I started this site as a purely personal project, but it seems to be functioning as a semi-official site for information about the Aro lineage. Apparently there were gaps in the official sites that we couldn't see before. Maybe this site ought to evolve toward being more official, and less my personal production. Perhaps having several authors would be helpful. I never intended it to be comprehensive, and I don't have time enough to make it that way. Also, inevitably different authors will have different perspectives.
Optional?
9 Jan 2011
Hi, Ricardo,
Thank you for this suggestion. I'm pretty sure the answer is "it is always optional", but I want to make absolutely sure. So I will do that, and then I will update the page to say so.
Cheers,
David
Your Generosity
9 Jan 2011
David,
Your generosity in understanding my intent and potential value are striking -- thank you.
I think your final paragraph's evaluation is spot on. However, I don't know the writing skills or intellectual habits of other Aro folks hardly at all. I think your style is singularly brilliant, inviting and clear without a touch of sectarianism. Indeed a new organized editing with many authors with many insights may be fantastic, but boy, I wouldn't want to see your style as informing the whole feel to the site be lost. But that is my personal preference.
The main Aro site is unwieldy, though helpful. It is easy to get lost there and ... I think the theme of "approaching" Aro is an important aspect in the phases model and you do that well. Writing from a "true committed believer" perspective could be off-putting for those approaching Aro or approaching any tradition.
And whatever you do when you edit this site, I think that getting rid of at least of half of my comments would be wise. You could address or not address a point in one of the posts and then scrap the comment. And certainly many of my comments are not to valuable. Readers of a thread or a blog can be put off commenting due to tons of pre-existing comments and a long history -- so cleaning up threads may be useful and can invite more dialogue.
This comment, for example, should eventually disappear IMHO. Leave room for those question from the new platforms. Again, I wholeheartedly support wiping my comments that are addressed in posts in some manner or which are felt irrelevant thereafter -- and others too, of course. Starting afresh with edition 2 could be cool!
Again, thank you for your generosity.
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