If the Aro gTer were taught by a Tibetan guy, would anyone in the West question it?
Tibetans doubt each other, don't they? Thus we have many Buddhist schools in Tibet. Who were the Tibetan's who doubted Ngak’chang Rinpoche's Tibetan teachers? Aren't these Yogis kind of outside the lineage stuff anyway -- isn't it ripe for individualism?
Lineage seems like a game to me, yet I can see it as on potential safeguard -- albeit not a strong or significant one.
Yes, there was and is intense sectarianism in Tibet, and Tibetan Lamas certainly doubt each other. At least one of Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teachers came under intense political pressure from Tibetan conservatives.
Western Tibetan Buddhists are mostly likely to view everything that comes from Tibet as valid by definition. Some advanced Western students get caught up in Tibetan politics, but most don't care. Few Westerners will say "Lama X belongs to School Y, so everything he says is vicious lies inspired by demons" (as some Tibetans might). If Lama X looks like a Tibetan, he's revered as holy, and whatever he says is unquestionably right.
Yes, the yogic wing of Tibetan Buddhism tends to be individualistic; but the teacher-student relationship (which is one aspect of lineage) remains central.
Is it mainly the Nyingma sect that has these self-declared Térma revelations? If so, just as Pentecostals are looked down on by other Christian sects for their belief in continued prophesy by local church members and thus open revelation sources, I wondered if Nyingma is looked at suspiciously by some elements in the other orthodox sects (the other big 3) for their freewheeling térma.
I think I am starting to understand. It seems that Aro is very free from tradition in the following 5 ways:
1. Nyingma (Aro's lineage) itself is probably the loosest with revelations among Tibetan sects.
2. The Yogis are the most individualist -- free from monastic supervision & Aro is of this lineage (if I understand correctly.)
3. Rinpoche's Tibetan root teacher(?s) is one of these Nyingma Yogis who himself is not ground in a large monastic certificate-granting organization.
4. Rinpoche is a Westerner who was taken on by a Nyingma free Yogi who then commissions him to start a Lay Order (white shirts) that encourages married, lay life among Westerners.
ands commision who questions Tibetan Politics also.
5. Rinpoche lives in Wales, plays Louisiana Blues, decks himeslf cowboy attire and is a terton.
Not to say that Aro's teachings and methods are unorthodox, but they are not restrained by many of the traditions and appearances so important to others. Is that sort of accurate?
Yes, you've got the right idea. Most of that is exactly correct. Small points:
Some of Rinpoche's teachers were heads of large monasteries, ex officio, despite being ngakpas themselves.
The white-skirt (ngakpa) ordination is not lay (although it is often inaccurately described that way).
Rinpoche emphasizes that he is not the Aro terton. Aro Lingma was. (This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but it's important in Tantric terma theory.)
Re: The Yogis are the most individualist -- free from monastic supervision
Yogis are of course 'supervised' by their Lamas. In fact this mode of supervision is more specific and focussed than in a monastic setting, as the ratio of students to Lamas (supervisors!) can be very low, and Lamas can thus know their students as individuals, rather than just faces in a crowd.
@ David:
And those Tibetan teachers who were the heads of large Monasteries that taught your Rinpoche, also acknowledge him to be a valid transmitter of the lineage, correct? Didn't you write about that somewhere.
@ Namgyal:
Good point. But outside of a large organization, there is less checks of individual variance. But I hear you. Not that individual variances are bad, of course.
BTW, I am curious -- how are folks following these posts if they are not previous commentors? Is there a way to follow the whole blog or are folks e-mailing each other? Thanks.
On the front page of approaching aro there is a recent comments section - it shows the latest comments so those of us who generally follow what David writes can see what is being talked about - all very interesting stuff - but I only comment irregularly as the site is for those 'approaching' rather than those of us who are already involved.
hope that clears things up
best wishes
Ngakma She-zer
Re: But outside of a large organization, there is less checks of individual variance.
An interesting observation. I've worked in an organisation of 3,500 people, and have built a business from the ground up employing 3 people (initially) and now we've grown to 36 - and what you've said is not my experience. But - my experience is limited to simply being my experience of course.
And those Tibetan teachers who were the heads of large Monasteries that taught your Rinpoche, also acknowledge him to be a valid transmitter of the lineage, correct? Didn't you write about that somewhere.
I guess I am thinking of institutions whose goals are to safeguard orthodoxy -- religious, education, political and others. They often form all sorts of elaborate methods of reigning in those veering off course. With lots of people watching and lots of people invested in keeping status quo, there is less of an opportunity for individualism.
I am not sure we were talking about the same thing. But when discussions turn into abstract analogies, we invite misunderstandings, eh?
To satisfy the overwhelming popular demand for more Approaching Aro, faster, sooner, up-to-the-minute, breaking news as it happens! Tune in now!!!, I have added a comments RSS feed, and an all-comments email subscription feature.
Actually the email feature doesn't do quite what I'd like—it offers only up to ten comments per day, due to a technical limitation. But it's quite unusual for this site to have more than ten, so that should be OK. If we start running over that number often, I'll hit it with a bigger hammer.
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Comments
If the Aro gTer were taught
10 Jan 2011
Tibetans doubt each other, don't they? Thus we have many Buddhist schools in Tibet. Who were the Tibetan's who doubted Ngak’chang Rinpoche's Tibetan teachers? Aren't these Yogis kind of outside the lineage stuff anyway -- isn't it ripe for individualism?
Lineage seems like a game to me, yet I can see it as on potential safeguard -- albeit not a strong or significant one.
Tibetan vs Western sectarianism
10 Jan 2011
Yes, there was and is intense sectarianism in Tibet, and Tibetan Lamas certainly doubt each other. At least one of Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teachers came under intense political pressure from Tibetan conservatives.
Western Tibetan Buddhists are mostly likely to view everything that comes from Tibet as valid by definition. Some advanced Western students get caught up in Tibetan politics, but most don't care. Few Westerners will say "Lama X belongs to School Y, so everything he says is vicious lies inspired by demons" (as some Tibetans might). If Lama X looks like a Tibetan, he's revered as holy, and whatever he says is unquestionably right.
Yes, the yogic wing of Tibetan Buddhism tends to be individualistic; but the teacher-student relationship (which is one aspect of lineage) remains central.
Freewheeling Nyingmas
10 Jan 2011
Is it mainly the Nyingma sect that has these self-declared Térma revelations? If so, just as Pentecostals are looked down on by other Christian sects for their belief in continued prophesy by local church members and thus open revelation sources, I wondered if Nyingma is looked at suspiciously by some elements in the other orthodox sects (the other big 3) for their freewheeling térma.
I think I am starting to understand. It seems that Aro is very free from tradition in the following 5 ways:
1. Nyingma (Aro's lineage) itself is probably the loosest with revelations among Tibetan sects.
2. The Yogis are the most individualist -- free from monastic supervision & Aro is of this lineage (if I understand correctly.)
3. Rinpoche's Tibetan root teacher(?s) is one of these Nyingma Yogis who himself is not ground in a large monastic certificate-granting organization.
4. Rinpoche is a Westerner who was taken on by a Nyingma free Yogi who then commissions him to start a Lay Order (white shirts) that encourages married, lay life among Westerners.
ands commision who questions Tibetan Politics also.
5. Rinpoche lives in Wales, plays Louisiana Blues, decks himeslf cowboy attire and is a terton.
Not to say that Aro's teachings and methods are unorthodox, but they are not restrained by many of the traditions and appearances so important to others. Is that sort of accurate?
Unconstrained by convention
11 Jan 2011
Yes, you've got the right idea. Most of that is exactly correct. Small points:
Some of Rinpoche's teachers were heads of large monasteries, ex officio, despite being ngakpas themselves.
The white-skirt (ngakpa) ordination is not lay (although it is often inaccurately described that way).
Rinpoche emphasizes that he is not the Aro terton. Aro Lingma was. (This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but it's important in Tantric terma theory.)
Supervision
11 Jan 2011
Re: The Yogis are the most individualist -- free from monastic supervision
Yogis are of course 'supervised' by their Lamas. In fact this mode of supervision is more specific and focussed than in a monastic setting, as the ratio of students to Lamas (supervisors!) can be very low, and Lamas can thus know their students as individuals, rather than just faces in a crowd.
Valid Transmission
11 Jan 2011
Thank you David and Namgyal, those were helpful.
@ David:
And those Tibetan teachers who were the heads of large Monasteries that taught your Rinpoche, also acknowledge him to be a valid transmitter of the lineage, correct? Didn't you write about that somewhere.
@ Namgyal:
Good point. But outside of a large organization, there is less checks of individual variance. But I hear you. Not that individual variances are bad, of course.
BTW, I am curious -- how are folks following these posts if they are not previous commentors? Is there a way to follow the whole blog or are folks e-mailing each other? Thanks.
following comments
11 Jan 2011
Hi Sabio,
On the front page of approaching aro there is a recent comments section - it shows the latest comments so those of us who generally follow what David writes can see what is being talked about - all very interesting stuff - but I only comment irregularly as the site is for those 'approaching' rather than those of us who are already involved.
hope that clears things up
best wishes
Ngakma She-zer
Big and small
11 Jan 2011
Re: But outside of a large organization, there is less checks of individual variance.
An interesting observation. I've worked in an organisation of 3,500 people, and have built a business from the ground up employing 3 people (initially) and now we've grown to 36 - and what you've said is not my experience. But - my experience is limited to simply being my experience of course.
Authorizations
12 Jan 2011
Yes, see here and here and here.
Checks and Balance
12 Jan 2011
@ Namgyal
I guess I am thinking of institutions whose goals are to safeguard orthodoxy -- religious, education, political and others. They often form all sorts of elaborate methods of reigning in those veering off course. With lots of people watching and lots of people invested in keeping status quo, there is less of an opportunity for individualism.
I am not sure we were talking about the same thing. But when discussions turn into abstract analogies, we invite misunderstandings, eh?
Great
12 Jan 2011
Great, Thanks David
Comments subscription features
27 Jan 2011
To satisfy the overwhelming popular demand for more Approaching Aro, faster, sooner, up-to-the-minute, breaking news as it happens! Tune in now!!!, I have added a comments RSS feed, and an all-comments email subscription feature.
Actually the email feature doesn't do quite what I'd like—it offers only up to ten comments per day, due to a technical limitation. But it's quite unusual for this site to have more than ten, so that should be OK. If we start running over that number often, I'll hit it with a bigger hammer.
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